Interviewing And Hiring Engineers

As, like, a hiring manager, if you're in an interview where you think someone is using AI because you don't want to accuse them of something, but at the same time, it's like, you will. I would so much rather hire someone who doesn't have all the answers but will own up to it than, like, I don't want to deal with someone who's starting off on a dishonest foot.

Welcome to the Ladybug podcast. I'm Kelly.

And I'm Emma, and we're debugging tech industry.

Hello, Emma.

Hello, Kelly.

What are we talking about today?

Today we're talking about one of my favorite topics, which is interviewing and hiring.

Something that is absolutely required for your job, but also kind of sucks at times.

It can suck, but it can also be really wonderful.

I love interviewing. Like, I. I learn so much about other people when I'm interviewing them, and I just think it's knowing that I am able to create, like, a safe experience and a fun experience is such a cool part of my job.

Yeah, that's the. My favorite part is, like, making sure that every candidate walks away having had a good experience, even if they absolutely bombed that interview.

Exactly. And it's, you know, it's one of the things I take pride in. Like, if I. If you talk to me, you're getting, like, a customized rejection. If you're not moving forward, I guess not. What we're sending you, like, a blanket statement and, you know, tooting my own horn a little bit here, but, like, I've gotten responses from people being like, even though you're not moving forward with me, this has been one of the best interview experiences that I've had with a company. Or, like, this has been the nicest rejection email I've ever received.

I want you to interview me now. I want to see what it's like.

Okay, we can do that. So what do you say you do here? Yes.

I think it all starts with recruiting, and I think a lot of companies have recruiters that will take care of the actual recruiting process, although you might very likely write the job posting itself. My experience with hiring engineers. As a manager, I went through the process to hire a summer intern who was a bachelor student. Bachelor's or math? Well, in this instance, it was a bachelor's student. And I manually reviewed 600 resumes.

Yep.

I looked at every single one of them. I think people have this misconception that they get filtered out, and they probably do at some companies, but, like, at least with us, I looked at every single one and had to reject it for a specific reason.

Yep. It gets exhausting. You know, at stellar companies you might not have the luxury of having a recruiter do all for you. You might like, I've sourced candidates before. Like I've, I've done the full cycle and it's not always like, that's not always my favorite part of the job. You know, sending rejections never is fun. But what I will say is when you are doing that. Cause I've done the same thing, like posting a mid level, especially in this job market. When I posted like a mid level software engineer role, I got, I think it was like 2100 applications within five days. And yeah, how do you go through that? Like, how do you narrow it down?

Well, okay, some things can be filtered for. Right. Like if they live in a geographic region that we legally can't support or they. Yeah, things like that. It also, yeah, is interesting to see. It feels like people will just mass apply to jobs. I mean, and that's not to pass judgment on people doing that because of course if you're looking for a job and you're in a dire situation, you need to. But like a lot of times there are legal implications for hiring outside of a specific time zone or a region or a country. And like, if you apply outside of there, I actually like can't hire you anyway. So it's like I'd rather you save the time in reading like the basic things that absolutely have to get met. I'm not talking about like a degree. Like I don't need you to have like a college degree. Right. But we're talking more about like where you're located and if I can hire in that region.

Yeah, I've, I've had that. And then I've also narrowed it down by, you know, if, if you are completely different field. I've had people who, again, it's kind of like that, just like applying to literally everything. Like, you know, you're not qualified for this role, but you're literally applying to everything. And when I say not qualified, I'm saying like imagine I'm, I'm hiring for like a staff level software engineer and you are, I don't know, a data analyst or you're, you, you know, you're a librarian. Like there's such different fields, like that kind of thing. And then there are also tools out there that help you mass apply to roles via AI and like automatically customize your resume for it. I can tell when you use these one because I will see an app another application come in from you within 30 minutes of me rejecting you the first time. And two, your resume looks the same as everybody else's.

Yeah.

And I don't mean like the format. I have seen three resumes in a row from three different people verbatim. The top section.

Yeah. The other thing I don't think people realize, and it might not be this way at every company, but if you apply to multiple roles at the same company, if you apply for like five roles at the same company in all different domains, we can see that. I can see that you've applied for four other roles on four different teams doing four different jobs. Um, and to me, is that a deal breaker? No, it's not. However, if you're applying to a backend engineer and a front engineer and a data analyst, and like, I'm not really sure what your, your end game is here regarding your goals and your skill set. So I almost would rather take the time to like, go with somebody right off the bat who has read through the application and what we're looking for and all of that.

Exactly. Yeah. If you're applying to like a software engineer role from. On three different teams. Sure. And some companies do have maximum, you know, applications you can do. Like, you know, you can't apply again for six months, whatever it is. But it's when you're applying to such, like, starkly different roles that it's obvious that you're just mass applying to everything.

That's what it is. It's not like you're applying for the same role in three different teams. It's you're applying for any role on any team.

Exactly.

Just as a special note, as well, something that is becoming very apparent is when people are using AI to generate answers in live interviews.

Yes.

You might think it's not obvious, but I can assure you, based on things that I have seen engineering managers talk about at large scale, it is very obvious when you are using AI to regurgitate answers. So I would encourage you to not do that.

Yep. There is a pause and then you respond with a very formulaic approach or the response. I've also, I saw something on LinkedIn earlier this week where somebody who had like a, an actual deep fake that they were interviewing and they could tell, like, you could tell that it was like not a real human. In, in this. The interviewer was like, before we move on to this interview, I'm going to need you to put your hand in front of your face. And then if you don't do it, we're going to end this interview. And he was like the. He, the whoever it was a man, deep fake, was like, like this. And he's like, no, right in front of your face. And he just refused to do it. And the interview was like, all right, thank you for your time, goodbye. And ended the interview.

Yeah, it's uncomfortable as like a hiring manager if you're in an interview where you think someone is using AI because you don't want to accuse them of something, but at the same time it's like, you will. I would so much rather hire someone who doesn't have all the answers but will own up to it than like, I don't want to deal with someone who's starting off on a dishonest foot. So. Exactly. Yeah, that's just, you know, that's maybe a little bit unrelated to this episode, but if you are interviewing for jobs, please do not use AI because we can tell and it will not go well.

Yeah. Okay, so let's kind of talk through the interview process at a high level. Instead of like saying, all right, you're going to go through a recruiter screen and then you're going to go through a panel of interviews with like the hiring manager and then do like a system designer coding exercise and then like all of that, like that's going to vary from company to company. So instead of focusing on that part, let's talk about like the actual like technical considerations you're going to see in an interview.

Like, what are we looking for? What are we looking for? Exactly. Yeah. For me, I don't need somebody. Well, most of the time I'm not interviewing for a particular programming language. It is nice if someone has experience with the foundational languages that we're looking at. Right. Like if I need a front end engineer at like a senior level, I, I can't necessarily afford to take a chance on a backend engineer with no front end experience from that role. However, if you have experience with HTML, CSS, JavaScript and Angular, and I'm hiring for a REACT code base, I'm not going to discount you because you haven't worked with react. Right. So when we say programming language, it's not a binary. On like there's no, you know, every hiring manager is going to be different, but for me I'm like, I'm not going to just hire someone who has like only Scala experience for a front end job. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Now what I will say is in this market when you have a lot of really qualified candidates, it can come down to the programming language to be like, okay, like we're going to go with the one who can immediately hit the ground running. That is a, that is not a slight against you. There is just a better like one to one match for this particular role in the market, in the timing that you're, you're, you're applying. But I'm the same. Like, the other thing is like as a senior engineer, you know how to detect patterns and you know how to, you can pick up new languages. Like, I'm not going to expect you to know specifically, you know, all the packages we're using as well. Like, if you have the right experience. I see this a lot in backend. In particular, if you don't have node experience, but you have PHP experience, for example, I know you can pick up node if you're senior. If you're senior enough to understand how like the fundamentals of how things work.

Yeah. And if you can navigate tech talks and all of those things. Yeah, absolutely. In terms of other skills on a technical side, I mean, there are certain aspects, like as a web, let's say I'm hiring a web developer, like, I would like to see that you at least acknowledge that performance and accessibility are important. Maybe internationalization is important. I don't need to see you coding these things necessarily. But even just mentioning them is like a huge win. It doesn't have to be something you have like extensive experience with. Right. As long as you're aware that these things are important. Same with testing, being able to debug in real time. What's more important to me when I'm hiring someone is how do you handle adversity? Like, if you encounter a problem, are you able to discuss your way through it? And that can also mean that you ask for help or ask for clarifying points. But are you able to get through it without getting so flustered that you can't you just sit there in silence?

Yep, yep, I completely agree. I think the, the system design interview is the one I love the most and I think it's the one that scares people the most. It, I mean, it's, it is uncomfortable not knowing what people are going to ask you and then having to like, reason that. But like, again, the whole purpose of this is to understand your reasoning patterns. It's not to understand if you can get to the correct answer, there might not be a correct answer. A lot of this, like, it's meant to be, like, how would you approach building this? Like, this is the problem we're trying to solve. How would like what would you do? Like, what is your thought process? What clarifying questions are you asking? You should have clarifying questions. You should not jump right into, like, well, this is how I would do it. Like, ask questions, talk to your interviewers as well. It's meant to be a conversation and like build a system together. They're meant to challenge you. They're meant to also, like, the interviewers are going to push back on your designs. Like, okay, well, let's say this doesn't work. Or let's say like, you know, this might work now, but how will this scale? Like, these are the kinds of things they just want to know you're thinking about it and how you approach thinking about it. But it's also okay to be like, I don't know, like this is something I would need to spend more time on because this is not my area of expertise. That's okay.

Yeah, yeah, I'd rather hear that, frankly. What else? I think we look for potential. The desire to learn and grow into different skills. Growth, mindset is something that we're very passionate about at Spotify and is something that I'm just passionate about in my personal life too because I don't like surrounding myself with people who feel that their capabilities are fixed in any way. I believe that you can grow in every aspect of yourself. Right. So being able to admit where you need to make improvements and be open minded to doing so.

Yeah. I call it attitude and aptitude. It's really what I'm saying. Aptitude being the skill set and experience and the attitude being like your ability to grow and to know where your gaps currently are and how you can improve. Because I have actually gone into an interview for a senior role for somebody and they responded basically being like, well, I've been doing this for 15 years, so I know all that. Like, good luck finding somebody who knows more than I do. I'm like, oh, okay, I appreciate that. Good luck. Because I'm going to be doing that.

Yeah, yeah. I think another big thing that I would look for as a hiring manager is can they communicate specifically, can they communicate technical concepts and a non technical or in an approachable way? It can still be technical, but. And I do recognize that often non native English speakers or English as a second language speakers have a disadvantage in some ways. But I'm not looking for like, how good is your English? I'm looking for are you able to communicate effectively? Right. And it doesn't mean you have to have proper syntax like grammar or anything like that. But can you use Analogies to explain really complex ideas. Right. Yeah. That's what I care more about.

And this is a sign of a senior engineer, in my opinion, the ability to actually use technical concepts down.

Yeah.

And this is like when I say non technical audience, again, this might be like product or design. They're not necessarily non technical. Like they're working on the same product, but they're not going to understand data structures and algorithms the way you might understand them. Or like, if you start to go down this rabbit hole of, like, you know, limitations of this, like this provider you're writing or this module you're writing, they're gonna be like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Like, what are the actual limitations? And what is the. Again, going back to the business case. Like, what is the actual business case here?

Yeah. Also knowing when to stop talking. Like, don't ramble for 20 minutes straight on something. Like, I would. Interviewing is a skill. You should practice your answers ahead of time.

Yes. Record yourself and listen back. It's really awkward.

Yeah. I mean, the best way to do that is to start a podcast because then you'll realize how well spoken you are. Or potentially are not.

Or not. And there are a lot of really bad, bad podcasts out there.

Indeed. But yeah, interviewing is a skill, so practice what you can. And of course there are going to be questions that you have not prepared for. But the more you practice speaking, the more confident that you will get.

Exactly. Exactly. Lastly, documentation. This is something that, and I'm not talking about just like documenting your code. Documentation is a form of communication. It's a form of knowledge transfer. And being able to break that down is so, like, this is different from breaking, like in a live conversation. A lot of documentation is evergreen. I mean, it could change, I guess. But like, let's be honest, a lot of times we write documentation, we never revisit it.

Yeah. Or it's just neglected entirely and you never do it.

Yeah. Because you're going to move on from this company. People are going to come in and they need to under. They need to ramp up. They need to understand what's going on. Your documentation is so incredibly important.

Yeah. And written communication and spoken communication are two different things, two different skill sets. So they both require intentionality.

Yep. Everything comes back to intentionality, isn't it? It does love that for us. Okay, so that's more on the technical side of things. Now let's talk a little bit more on the, like, the team dynamics, collaboration side. Why don't you kick us off yes.

So it's been proven that teams who are more diverse have more innovation come from them. And when we talk about diversity and inclusion, it doesn't. I just want to make it very clear. We're not talking about hiring a type a person for their race or their gender or an orientation of any kind or their skillset. We're talking about having a diverse set of candidates, making sure that you're interviewing a diverse set of people and then picking the one who best fits with what you, you are looking for in the role skillset wise or who does the best. So let's make that very clear that we're not hiring people for a specific reason based on who they are or things of that nature. However, when we say diversity of teams, we're talking about ways of thinking and skill set and it's encompassing a lot of different factors. Right. So one thing that our team did is a skills analysis where we basically mapped out like, who on the team has what skills. And we were able to identify like, where we have skill gaps. Gaps and match people up with like mentors in the areas that they wanted to grow their skills as well. Right. This is a type of diversity. Diversity in skills. Right. And so. Oh, okay, we have a skill gap when it, as it pertains to performance on web. Well, maybe if we need to take on an embed or an intern, we look for somebody with that type of experience or, or knowledge.

I like that. I think, I think it's that having that exercise is actually really important because, like, I know in my head who, like where people's skills lie, but we haven't actually had that conversation like as a whole team. Some of it's just been more like naturally picking up over time. As you work with somebody, you recognize where their skills are and where their strengths are. But, but yeah, one thing I'll, I'll touch on on the diversity and inclusion side of things as well is just like it is, as you said, it is known, a product that serves a broad audience should be built by a broad audience.

Right, Right. Yeah. How can you build a product for a type of user that you don't have represented in your company? It is very difficult.

Yeah. And this is especially important when we start talking about disability because this, this comes in to like, and I think this is, this is probably like a stereotypical kind of like system designer product, like question. But like, let's take Uber for example. How would somebody who is blind request an Uber? You have to talk to them first to understand why, like, how are how, like, what would make. What would be best for them? You cannot make assumptions. And like, if you can bring folks on to like represent even, even in like a consultative state, not necessarily like they have to be also engineers this and that's just not the case. But you need to bring in the right representatives to be able to build that product. That product for everybody.

Yeah, totally. We have an accessibility team that works with our design systems team and one of the lead engineers there is blind and uses a screen reader and he's been mentoring us and helping us a lot, which is great. But we also use this platform called Fable, whereby we have like a monthly subscription of hours that we can book with blind users or users who use a mouth stick to type or people who just need additional support to try things out. And it's like a recorded session where we can essentially watch them complete tasks that are key to the the client or the product. And then they can tell us what are the pain points and how would you solve this? What would make your life easier.

That is so cool.

Yeah, it's a great platform. I like absolutely recommend it. It was fantastic. And everybody who works as like a user on there is just amazing. I had another point about, oh, on the diversity and inclusion side of things, one thing that I had to very consciously check was my bias when I was interviewing. My bias in terms of like, is this person? Like, there were candidates, I'd be like, oh, this person reminds me of myself. Like they went to a similar college or look, they're a similar age or they come from the same part of the world as me. Like, you know, you have to like intentionally going back to intentionality, you have to intentionally check your bias and ask yourself, am I too biased to conduct these interviews? Actually when we were, we had an internal role we had opened on my team because someone who was embedding with us for an extended period of time had like wanted to come permanently. But in order to do this in a fair way, we had to open a position across the company and allow anybody to apply. So they were all internal hires who were highly qualified to be there. And I had to consciously check my bias at multiple points because of course I have the most facetime with the person who's already on my team. I know that they can do a good job. And actually one of my co interviewers after the fact was like, hey, I think you introduced bias into this process by nature because you were in some of these interviews. I think next time you shouldn't be part of that at all. And I'm like, you know what, you're right. That is totally a fair thing. So now as we're looking for my seven month replacement as an EM on my team, I'm not part of the process, process at all. I wrote the job interview and I'm like, cool, here's here. I send to my manager. I'm like, you handle it. Just tell me who I'm working with.

This is your problem now. Yeah, exactly. No, that's really smart and I'm, I'm really glad that the team felt also psychologically safe enough to call you out on that. Not call you out as a harsh way of saying it, but like, like to give that constructive feedback. Because telling somebody they should not be here can be a difficult conversation to have. I love that that was such a positive outcome. Speaking of communication skills, like, I want to know how you're going to be able to work on a team with other people, how you're going to be able to work with me, how are you going to be able to work with your peers and then folks who are not on the engineering team as well? Because, you know, we all have different communication styles. Again, when you come from different backgrounds, different cultures, you're going to have very different ways of problem solving and handling conflict and understanding how you approach like communication to conflict or whatever is important in the interview process to know because you need to understand like is this individual going to work well with the rest of the team? And there's a, like, with the bias side, you have to catch yourself to be like, are they working well with the rest of the team? Because they're just like everybody on the team or is this person going to you know, work well because they're also going to like bring a different like viewpoint in and challenge the thoughts and beliefs of the other people on the team. Those are two very different ways of looking at it.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I don't actually, I don't know if I've consciously thought about like, oh, is this candidate going to challenge for me, it's not like are going to, it's.

Like challenge is not a bad thing.

No, no, no, not that, that's not what I'm getting at. It's more like do, did I create an environment where people feel comfortable challenging one another? Yeah, but yeah, something that I have questions about. Maybe you have advice. Is this whole concept of like team fit, do they fit in with the team? How is that, like, how do you do that in a non biasey way? Right. Because to some Extent. It's like, okay, we're looking for people who are different. Have different thought processes come from all different parts of the world. Like, whatever it may be, how do you ensure that, like, you're not picking a candidate because they just fit in? Like, there used to be the saying, like, oh, hire the person you wouldn't mind getting stuck in an airport with on a business trip. And it's like, okay, but that's not necessarily the best metric for choosing a team member.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, part of it is what I just said. Like, are they bringing in another. Another viewpoint that's going to add a new dimension to the team, or is it going to conflict so much with the team that it's going to cause strife? And the way that. And this is why I think, I know a lot of people complain about, like, the number of interviews, and some of these interview processes are far too long. I will, I will say, but, like, the more people you have an opportunity to meet, the more you're going to see if this is a team you want to work with as well. And, you know, I think it's, it's. I always encourage people who are actively interviewing to, like, you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. I know it doesn't feel like that when you're the one who's looking for a job and there are times when you're like, I just need something and you're going to deal with whatever, you know, whatever comes up. But, like, it's important to, to, you know, actually interview your interviewers as well.

Yeah.

And so, like, with that, I, I think I'm trying to figure out how to best. How to best answer this team fit question. It is, it is tough because again, you. It can, it can easily introduce bias, for sure.

Maybe it's not about being identical to what exists, but being complimentary.

Exactly.

Just another thing too, like, on the communication skills side of things, like, something that I look for in people is the ability to really analyze their shortcomings and be honest about that. Like, the whole question of, like, oh, tell me what your weakness is. Like, I don't want to hear that you're too hard working. Right. Work too much. For me, Like, I would answer that and be like, look, I get really excited about things and I, like, dive headfirst into them and will go all in, but then, like, not want to touch it ever again. And that means that sometimes I don't deliver the highest quality or I'm not able to work on long running. Projects, but it's something I'm aware of and I have measures in place to deal with it. Like, be honest, you don't have to be degrading, but I don't want, I want people who can identify their areas for improvement.

And for me, like, I'm a perfectionist and I take great pride in the work that I do. And I identify, you know, identify myself by my work. Whether I should or should not, my therapist has opinions on. Um, but as a result, it means that I can, I can take things very personally at times. Um, and, and I'm, I, I need to, like, I'm cognizant of this. And so it's something that I just need to be very mindful of. Um, I generally take feedback well, but I, you know, if I make a mistake, I'm harder on myself than other people are gonna be on me.

Mm. Yeah. And then I think as like a last tip, like, have confidence. Like, not ego confidence. Like, don't be egotistical. But like, the summer intern that we ended up hiring a couple, I just remember he was very like, not self deprecating, but he wasn't confident in himself. And I had to multiple times, like, remind him. I mean, he was a college student, so he had not really had much experience interviewing. But I had to remind him multiple times, like, you're here for a reason. Like, I wouldn't be sitting here interviewing you. Like, it would be a waste of both of our time. So you deserve to be here. Right. You don't have to have all the answers. But I think it's important to not be self deprecating in these interviews. Like, they're taking time to meet with you for a reason.

Yeah, don't, don't, don't talk the interviewer out of hiring you. That's actually true. That is not your, that is not your goal here. But again, it is a matter of balancing, you know, confidence with ego. And I've seen that ego show up. I gave the example earlier of the person who had 15 years of experience. That was just, that was so much ego I needed to leave the room. But like, yeah, don't talk yourself out of it. And then the other thing I'll mention is just like, like mentorship and leadership potential. And what I mean by this is like, I don't believe everybody should be a manager. Like, I don't think I, I think is a massive mistake if companies actually say like the next rung on the career letters, becoming ladders, becoming a manager. Because there are two different fields they're two entirely different fields, which is why we're recording this whole season on engineering management in the first place. But you can be a leader without being a manager. And that's what I'm looking at for. I'm looking for somebody who is going to bring like an era of influence to the team. Like, they want to build that you. They want to build that confidence and they want to be like a point person for something they take great pride in, in, in having ownership over the work that they do and helping others grow. This comes usually through the. More through the form of mentorship. Like, have you ever mentored more junior engineers? Or, you know, what have you? Like, that's a good example of something you might hear in an interview. But I don't necessarily need you to be like, I want to be a manager one day.

Also.

Like, I also don't care if you don't know if you want to be a manager one day, because that is a big decision to make.

Yeah. I mean, I can tell you right now, like, my team, they're happy in their roles. They're going to be there probably for the rest of their lives. It's not like they're looking to go the leadership route. And that's totally fine. I don't know what's up with this culture nowadays of like, constantly striving to get to this next rung on the ladder. It's like, if you're aiming to get a promotion every two to three years, it's first of all unrealistic and not gonna happen. Secondly, are you chasing a title over, like, just growing? And like, I guess my question is why? But I do feel like it's more prominent nowadays to have this, like, mindset of, oh, I have to get to a manager or a staff role. And it's like, no, you don't.

Yeah, you absolutely do. When I see somebody who, like, I went from junior to staff in a year and a half, I'm like, but did you or did your title change? Yeah, there's, there are two very different things there. And, and yeah, I, I agree that there, there feels like this, like you're not growing unless your title is changing, which is absolutely false. Most people change jobs because they're looking to get paid more. And the title, even if you go, quote, unquote, go back a step in title, doesn't mean that you're, you're less than the title you had before. It could be a very. Just the company titles differently, you know, moving from a startup to a larger company. You're going to see often, like if I were, you know, I'm a director right now at Spot, if I were to move to a larger organization like a Spotify for example, I would probably be a senior manager because the rules are just not the same.

Yeah, when I moved from Log Me in over to Spotify, they basically told me, you're accepting a role that's like less senior than you have now. And I'm like, yeah, that's fine. Like I'm cool with that. And now look like I'm an EM too, so.

Exactly.

It's not to say titles aren't, aren't important, they absolutely are. But I think I, I'm not looking for somebody who has their entire career trajectory laid out on a piece of paper in terms of like wanting to go the leadership route. And frankly I used to want to go the leadership route and, and go into upper management and all these things. And I'm like, your, your values and your motivations will change over time. So I don't need to see that like, oh, I'm gonna get to staff in the next five years. It's like, no, I'd much rather see that you're excited about learning new skills and, and growing in other ways. And frankly, I don't need you to be like a full on leader. If I'm hiring like an entry level engineer. I'm saying that you're open minded and have a growth mindset. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. And then like, yeah, of course, cater your response to the role that you're actually interviewing for. I mean it's a big difference, as you said. Okay, let's, let's wrap up one more section here. Just kind of close out what we are looking for in an interview. And the last part is on the like just the cultural company fit and values alignment. And this is when it becomes really, really, really important for you to do your research on a company. And this is not so the company can quiz you to see if you know and you did your research. This is for you to say, is this a company that I would feel proud of representing? And again, if you're in a place where you just need to find a job, obviously it's going to be a different conversation. But if you are looking for a company that aligns with your values, it will require work on your part.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's okay if you have to take on a job that isn't your dream job. Of course. I think dream jobs are highly unattainable for most people in their lifetime. Unfortunately, also, unfortunately, we spend a lot.

Of our lives working. So if this one isn't your dream job, you might have your dream job next. Yeah, whatever that means. And again, we're changes people. Like your interests are going to change, your focuses are going to change. You might go like from very like early career, you're super focused on just like growing in your career and being a professional to you know, if you are focused on moving or family life or you know, whatever, you know, health related stuff, your focus might shift away from being that high performer all the time to wanting something stable.

Yeah, absolutely. But I will say the candidates who have close values, alignments with the company that you're hiring for are probably more likely to be successful and happier. And just like lastly, yeah, like ownership and accountability, are they proactive? Do they wait for instructions? Like we'd like to see people who, if they're stuck, they can ask for help proactively or keep the conversation going and then resilience. Like how do they deal with adversity if they get stuck or hit roadblocks or like our team, we deal with a lot of ambiguity and so it's very important to me that we have people who are okay not having all the requirements or having to go chase down stakeholders or whatnot.

Exactly, exactly. All right, let's wrap up with resources. Also, I'm very, I'm very curious to see if I just messed up our video recording a little bit because I pressed a button on your, on your camera while you were looking and it put you in focus. Oh, we'll see. I don't know how to use technology. It's fine. What's your resource this week?

This week I'm again choosing for the second time in a row a resource I have not read and cannot like vet. I've read the first 20 pages and then I get distracted. But it's a very well known book called Rahu Kandor by Kim Scott. This is in the spirit of giving constructive feedback in a. With candor. So like being open and honest. I guess you've read the book, but in a way that's not rude. Like it's not about be like giving people the ability to be jerks. Right. It's, it's about being transparent and honest with them to grow them as a person or as a team member. Without being abrasive.

Yeah. And because the opposite, the opposite is like the absence of, of giving any feedback because you don't care or you're so lax that your team is like, am I doing a Good job. I don't know. And that makes me worry. Yeah. Great book. I highly recommend it. Mine is who by Jeff Smart. I read this book back when I was still running my agency on how to hire, and this is such a helpful book to kind of help you think through what needs to go into the job description. And how do you actually, how do you know you're hiring for the right things? And how can you have like an unbiased, formulaic way of evaluating candidates? And how can you help your team do the same thing? Because you're not going to be in the room for every single interview, nor should you. How can you make sure your team is also hiring without bias and that they're evaluating all candidates the same way as well? So also a really, really good book to read.

I will have to check that out. That sounds interesting.

Yeah.

Nice.

With that, we are officially wrapping up this episode, so thanks for tuning in. We'll be back next week with a fun topic which is performance management. I am looking forward to talking about that one. So thank you for listening. Subscribe if you're not currently subscribed, find us on YouTube, give us a five star hopefully review on wherever you rate your podcast and we will see you next week.